Roberts is a damn liberal

[AK Gandy]

Originally Posted by highlandre

Perhaps I am. My wife who's a staunch Dem. told me that I was advocating Socialism which wasn't my intent. I was more going for the thought that we as a society need to do more to help our own that we're currently doing.

I grew up as a staunch Republican, anti-big government. My father owned his own business which ultimately went under so we were very much about paying as few taxes as possible and keeping what’s ours.
As I've grown older and seen how the world really works (money, period). I've come to the realization we've moved from a democracy to a corporatocracy and that the rules that used to apply no longer do.

Take for example the SCOTUS overturn of the McCain-Feingold Act (BCRA) it’s now become legal for a few billionaires to buy a political seat from a congressman to the POTUS. There is something inherently wrong with a system that allows a few extremely wealthy people decide the fate of a country.

Personally I feel that all political campaigns should be paid for from a pool of public funds. This will ensure that one doesn't win an election based solely on the amount of money they can raise. We can then focus on the candidates and their plans/positions.

There will never be a way to stop the misinformation, the flip-flopping and negativity associated with the aforementioned campaigns. It's just the nature of politics.

Another problem we have right now is that, rather than focus on the economy or on recovery, Congress (mostly, but not all, are Republicans) is more concerned about legislating morality. Congress’ continued legislative attempts to restrict women's reproductive rights, gay rights and dictate religious morality.

Every one of the moral issues I raise above about is derived from religious beliefs. Some are more extreme than others but they are founded in religion.

That is wrong, period.
You have no right to push your religious beliefs on another person just like I don’t have the right to push my “beliefs”, whatever they may be, on you. Those of faith have a right to practice and believe whatever religion they want whether it is Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or Pastafarian. The problem is that they wish to dictate things like whether a woman can take the pill, have an abortion or access the morning after pill. That is no one’s business but the woman and her physician.

If you don't agree with the above medical procedures, that's fine, don't have those procedures. You may be morally opposed to those ideas but there are others of us that view them as acceptable and morally neutral. A fetus is really just a parasite that is feeding off the woman just like a mosquito or a leech. It just happens to have human DNA.

People have gotten upset that, on one hand, the government wants to push healthcare on us to be responsible for our own healthcare and provide for those that don’t/cant; yet, on the other hand, they feel that the government should dictate what medical procedures we can have?

It’s been said that the PPACA will prevent people from getting the treatments they need because of bureaucracy, age or whatever; but then they think it's appropriate for the government to say prevent people from having a medically acceptable treatment such as an abortion, even if her physician and private insurance are willing to perform/pay for it?

You can't have it both ways; the government either stays out of our medical care or it doesn't.

I suppose I could write a paper on my opinions and go more into depth and dusting off my statistics, gather the data but I don't know if this is the right place to discuss this. Or perhaps it is. I'm assuming that I'm in the minority on this site in my viewpoints. I'd love for others to see things thru my eyes. The problem is that no one has had my experiences, nor have I had the experiences of others. These experiences and beliefs are what form us.

I've always said that I have ideas and theories but not beliefs. The reason being is that ideas and theories can morph and change but beliefs, by enlarge, don't. This doesn’t mean I don’t have morals, just that mine are different from yours or anyone else.

As an example, I used to be a member a Presbyterian church and had perfect attendance in Sunday school for 9 straight years. I heard all the stories and memorized the books of the Bible. But, during that time I could never understand how people could believe the teachings. They never made sense to me and I’ve never been one to take things at face value. “The Bible says it’s true so it’s true” is one of the most inane things I’ve ever heard which led me question everything.

I know I spend way too much time reading journal articles and political bills but I’ve gotten to where I refuse to believe anything that either side says and will review the information myself and make form opinion. This leads me to be a much more informed person in an attempt to keep me from being duped, regardless the topic. Obviously not exactly realistic but what’s wrong with setting high goals even if they’re unattainable.

The long and short of it is that whether it’s a tax, as SCOTUS says, or a penalty, as Romney Care says, the fact of the matter is that it will lead more people to have healthcare which can only be a benefit for society. The healthier a population is the happier and more productive they will be. Remember, Life, Liberty and Pursuit of happiness are the ideals that we live by and healthcare for all supports the ideal that Life is the more important than anything else.

I wish as a society that we could at least try and see if the PPACA works before we work to repeal the law. Give it 4 years and if it’s a complete failure then we can always repeal it then. We haven’t even seen it in practice so how can we say it’s a failure? We haven’t given it a chance.

Very well said.


.

[dzljon]

Originally Posted by highlandre

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

We each view the world through our own eyes and have a different perception on how we want our country to move forward.

I'm for a society that places education, science and technology at the forefront. Rather than one that places war and corporate profits first. Healthcare should be provided to all. Education should be provided for all. These are not luxuries but necessities if our country is to survive.

Our founding fathers had great hope for this country and now we've turned into a war-mongering zealots that worry only for the bottom line.

I can only hope I see the day when my grandkids can tell me they couldn't imagine what it was like without these benefits.

I disagreee, those that have the drive to achieve have some sort of benifit the weak/illegal should and will die off, they are dead weight holding back the country and voting people like palosi and reid in becasue they dont want to work they are freakin lazy.....

If this is the law of the land you should have to pass a drug test, not smoke, dont abuse alcohol becasue i dont wan tot pay for your stupid ass because you cant take care of yourself... now that we have entered that how many of you think that is right? because it wont belong before some government official says you cant be treated becasue you have a history of using something.... f*** this law and all you that support it!

[PsRumors]

Originally Posted by highlandre

Perhaps I am. My wife who's a staunch Dem. told me that I was advocating Socialism which wasn't my intent. I was more going for the thought that we as a society need to do more to help our own that we're currently doing.

I grew up as a staunch Republican, anti-big government. My father owned his own business which ultimately went under so we were very much about paying as few taxes as possible and keeping what’s ours.
As I've grown older and seen how the world really works (money, period). I've come to the realization we've moved from a democracy to a corporatocracy and that the rules that used to apply no longer do.

Take for example the SCOTUS overturn of the McCain-Feingold Act (BCRA) it’s now become legal for a few billionaires to buy a political seat from a congressman to the POTUS. There is something inherently wrong with a system that allows a few extremely wealthy people decide the fate of a country.

Personally I feel that all political campaigns should be paid for from a pool of public funds. This will ensure that one doesn't win an election based solely on the amount of money they can raise. We can then focus on the candidates and their plans/positions.

There will never be a way to stop the misinformation, the flip-flopping and negativity associated with the aforementioned campaigns. It's just the nature of politics.

Another problem we have right now is that, rather than focus on the economy or on recovery, Congress (mostly, but not all, are Republicans) is more concerned about legislating morality. Congress’ continued legislative attempts to restrict women's reproductive rights, gay rights and dictate religious morality.

Every one of the moral issues I raise above about is derived from religious beliefs. Some are more extreme than others but they are founded in religion.

That is wrong, period.
You have no right to push your religious beliefs on another person just like I don’t have the right to push my “beliefs”, whatever they may be, on you. Those of faith have a right to practice and believe whatever religion they want whether it is Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or Pastafarian. The problem is that they wish to dictate things like whether a woman can take the pill, have an abortion or access the morning after pill. That is no one’s business but the woman and her physician.

If you don't agree with the above medical procedures, that's fine, don't have those procedures. You may be morally opposed to those ideas but there are others of us that view them as acceptable and morally neutral. A fetus is really just a parasite that is feeding off the woman just like a mosquito or a leech. It just happens to have human DNA.

People have gotten upset that, on one hand, the government wants to push healthcare on us to be responsible for our own healthcare and provide for those that don’t/cant; yet, on the other hand, they feel that the government should dictate what medical procedures we can have?

It’s been said that the PPACA will prevent people from getting the treatments they need because of bureaucracy, age or whatever; but then they think it's appropriate for the government to say prevent people from having a medically acceptable treatment such as an abortion, even if her physician and private insurance are willing to perform/pay for it?

You can't have it both ways; the government either stays out of our medical care or it doesn't.

I suppose I could write a paper on my opinions and go more into depth and dusting off my statistics, gather the data but I don't know if this is the right place to discuss this. Or perhaps it is. I'm assuming that I'm in the minority on this site in my viewpoints. I'd love for others to see things thru my eyes. The problem is that no one has had my experiences, nor have I had the experiences of others. These experiences and beliefs are what form us.

I've always said that I have ideas and theories but not beliefs. The reason being is that ideas and theories can morph and change but beliefs, by enlarge, don't. This doesn’t mean I don’t have morals, just that mine are different from yours or anyone else.

As an example, I used to be a member a Presbyterian church and had perfect attendance in Sunday school for 9 straight years. I heard all the stories and memorized the books of the Bible. But, during that time I could never understand how people could believe the teachings. They never made sense to me and I’ve never been one to take things at face value. “The Bible says it’s true so it’s true” is one of the most inane things I’ve ever heard which led me question everything.

I know I spend way too much time reading journal articles and political bills but I’ve gotten to where I refuse to believe anything that either side says and will review the information myself and make form opinion. This leads me to be a much more informed person in an attempt to keep me from being duped, regardless the topic. Obviously not exactly realistic but what’s wrong with setting high goals even if they’re unattainable.

The long and short of it is that whether it’s a tax, as SCOTUS says, or a penalty, as Romney Care says, the fact of the matter is that it will lead more people to have healthcare which can only be a benefit for society. The healthier a population is the happier and more productive they will be. Remember, Life, Liberty and Pursuit of happiness are the ideals that we live by and healthcare for all supports the ideal that Life is the more important than anything else.

I wish as a society that we could at least try and see if the PPACA works before we work to repeal the law. Give it 4 years and if it’s a complete failure then we can always repeal it then. We haven’t even seen it in practice so how can we say it’s a failure? We haven’t given it a chance.

I am totally confused.....

You have no right to push your religious beliefs on another person just like I don’t have the right to push my “beliefs”, whatever they may be, on you.

But you are OK with the government forcing your health care beliefs on others?

How about the fact that some religious institutions would be required to offer plans that go against their beliefs?

As YOU said

You can't have it both ways; the government either stays out of our medical care or it doesn't.

So what do you prefer? The government in your health care or not? If they are going to be in health care do you not think they will regulate?

[AK Gandy]

Originally Posted by dzljon

I disagreee, those that have the drive to achieve have some sort of benifit the weak/illegal should and will die off, they are dead weight holding back the country and voting people like palosi and reid in becasue they dont want to work they are freakin lazy.....

If this is the law of the land you should have to pass a drug test, not smoke, dont abuse alcohol becasue i dont wan tot pay for your stupid ass because you cant take care of yourself... now that we have entered that how many of you think that is right? because it wont belong before some government official says you cant be treated becasue you have a history of using something.... f*** this law and all you that support it!

Do you feel the same way, about your parents being covered by Medicare?

It's actually refreshing to hear someone like yourself stand on their principles and in essence say, "if my parents can't afford medical care...then they need to die."

At least you're consistent....right?

.

[highlandre]

Originally Posted by PsRumors

I am totally confused.....



But you are OK with the government forcing your health care beliefs on others?

They're not forcing you to get healthcare. They're saying that if you choose not to get it then there is a penalty that will be incurred to help offset the costs that those of us that have insurance must pay in the form of increased hospital costs which translate to higher insurance premiums

How about the fact that some religious institutions would be required to offer plans that go against their beliefs?

Again, Religious institutions are not being forced to offer services that go against their beliefs. Insurance companies are required to provide coverage for the patient. It has nothing to do with the religious organization.

I'd love to see an insurance company that would rather pay for a woman to go thru childbirth and all the related costs than pay for the same woman to use birth control. If it was my insurance company I'd much rather pay the $40 a month to cover some pills than the 10's of 1000's of $$ that it would cost for the birth. That's capitalism at it's best.

And the argument that the institution pays a portion of the cost is not a valid argument either. As a patient I can just say that those treatments are part of my portion of the premium whereas your portion pays for other things that you aren't "morally against"

As YOU said

So what do you prefer? The government in your health care or not? If they are going to be in health care do you not think they will regulate?

Yes they should regulate and make sure that people aren't discriminated against. Especially due to beliefs that have no basis in healthcare or the needs of the patient.

[highlandre]

Originally Posted by dzljon

I disagreee, those that have the drive to achieve have some sort of benifit the weak/illegal should and will die off, they are dead weight holding back the country and voting people like palosi and reid in becasue they dont want to work they are freakin lazy.....

If this is the law of the land you should have to pass a drug test, not smoke, dont abuse alcohol becasue i dont wan tot pay for your stupid ass because you cant take care of yourself... now that we have entered that how many of you think that is right? because it wont belong before some government official says you cant be treated becasue you have a history of using something.... f*** this law and all you that support it!

It's good to see that rather than have a rational argument all you do is spew hatred and misinformation.

I hope the day comes when someone you care about needs medical care and they are unable to get it because a private insurance company says that it's not cost effective or you're denied coverage due to a pre-existing condition.

But then again according to your philosophy that's ok because they are weak and can't take care of themselves.

Or if you lose your job thru no fault of your own then perhaps it's time that emergency rooms turn people away that can't pay. It's not fair that hospitals and insurance companies have to "pay for your ass" if you don't have insurance.

And without being a complete jerk, I'm curious as to your occupation and level of education. You just seem to be very irrational in some of your statements and I'm curious what your background is and why you feel that helping your fellow man is such a negative.

[PsRumors]

Originally Posted by highlandre

They're not forcing you to get healthcare. They're saying that if you choose not to get it then there is a penalty that will be incurred to help offset the costs that those of us that have insurance must pay in the form of increased hospital costs which translate to higher insurance premiums

tomato tomato

The intention of the law is to get everyone insured....is it not?

Forcing by way of "penalty", tax, etc is still force.

Of course, if this works the way it appears, it will be much less expensive for me to go uninsured, pay the penalty, and mooch off your back as compared to continuing to pay my premiums.

Originally Posted by highlandre

Again, Religious institutions are not being forced to offer services that go against their beliefs. Insurance companies are required to provide coverage for the patient. It has nothing to do with the religious organization.

I'd love to see an insurance company that would rather pay for a woman to go thru childbirth and all the related costs than pay for the same woman to use birth control. If it was my insurance company I'd much rather pay the $40 a month to cover some pills than the 10's of 1000's of $$ that it would cost for the birth. That's capitalism at it's best.

And the argument that the institution pays a portion of the cost is not a valid argument either. As a patient I can just say that those treatments are part of my portion of the premium whereas your portion pays for other things that you aren't "morally against"

And for the religious institutions that are either self insured or pay the employee's entire premium? What double speak do you have for them?

Originally Posted by highlandre

Yes they should regulate and make sure that people aren't discriminated against. Especially due to beliefs that have no basis in healthcare or the needs of the patient.

But political nature is to inflict one's own opinion. The more power you give them the more that nature is seen.

[Suns_PSD]

Originally Posted by PsRumors

And for the religious institutions that are either self insured or pay the employee's entire premium? What double speak do you have for them?

It should be illegal for any company or organization to withhold medical care based on a religious doctrine.

For instance, if my boss was a Muslim and felt that invasive surgeries are an afront to the human body and are morally reprehensible, that doesn't mean he should have the right to force his religious beliefs on me and have a provision in my company provided health insurance that doesn't pay for any open surgical procedure. Or that doesn't pay for a circumcision on my child. Or doesn't provide hormonal birth control to my wife.

If someone has a certain belief system they have every right to that belief system, but they sure as hell don't have a right to force me to abide by their religious standards just because I am an employee of theirs.

[PsRumors]

Originally Posted by Suns_PSD

It should be illegal for any company or organization to withhold medical care based on a religious doctrine.

Who is withholding medical care? They just don't want to pay for it. You can still pay for it yourself.

Originally Posted by Suns_PSD

For instance, if my boss was a Muslim and felt that invasive surgeries are an afront to the human body and are morally reprehensible, that doesn't mean he should have the right to force his religious beliefs on me and have a provision in my company provided health insurance that doesn't pay for any open surgical procedure. Or that doesn't pay for a circumcision on my child. Or doesn't provide hormonal birth control to my wife.

If someone has a certain belief system they have every right to that belief system, but they sure as hell don't have a right to force me to abide by their religious standards just because I am an employee of theirs.

And so you have a right to force them to pay for something against their beliefs?

For instance you agree to go to work for a religious school that teachs based on their doctrines, in those doctrines is the premise that God opens the womb and closes the womb thus making birth control a sin. You have agreed to also teach this doctrine.

Are you saying the school should be REQUIRED to pay for medical treatment against their doctrines?

[highlandre]

Originally Posted by PsRumors

Who is withholding medical care? They just don't want to pay for it. You can still pay for it yourself.



And so you have a right to force them to pay for something against their beliefs?

For instance you agree to go to work for a religious school that teachs based on their doctrines, in those doctrines is the premise that God opens the womb and closes the womb thus making birth control a sin. You have agreed to also teach this doctrine.

Are you saying the school should be REQUIRED to pay for medical treatment against their doctrines?

They're not paying for it, the insurance company is. The premiums that the organization is paying will not go up and likely go down.

Plus, with your example, if I was going to work for a school that taught a specific doctrine doesn't mean I have to agree with what I'm teaching. I'm just doing it because I need a job and this was all I could get. Now my spouse and I get pregnant but we are not in a position to have a child at this time. Abortion should be a valid option because it's a medical procedure.

Religion doesn't have a place in the doctor's office. This is why Science and Religion have been and always will be at odds. They both try to debunk the other. This is why I side with Science. My opinion that Science will do for mankind than anything else.

Sorry, and not to be rude, but I don't buy that argument.