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Would you like to see more talk on this subject

  • yes, very interested

    Votes: 64 88.9%
  • no, not interested

    Votes: 8 11.1%
  • No way, I'll lose money

    Votes: 0 0.0%

Open source tuning

21K views 117 replies 32 participants last post by  Groovy Chick 
#1 ·
Discuss.
 
#2 ·
I have no interest in tuning myself but have learned a lot from the discussions.
 
#4 ·
Mildly interested. It's something I like learning about, but I grown to love live tuning. With all the other BS in my life, this would be another distraction. Maybe next year when I get one project finished and move to the new play toy.

Unless the price is that which I could not pass up.
 
#5 ·
I said "yes" simply because the lock and key everyone's got on these archaic dinosaurs is stupid. It costs big money to do anything with these trucks and that includes tuning.

Hell, these trucks are anywhere between 6-14 years old and they're old technology. Like you said, David, gassers have been getting open-source tuning junk for years....but only because the gains are marginal. Of course, once someone figures out that big power is available just in the tuning (diesels), those that have.....well...have it. Those few who have it figure that those who don't can get bent and fork over big bucks for their secrets.

It's really sad. But then again, if cracking code is your bread and butter, you should get paid.
 
#6 ·
I just sold the fuelie set up off my mustang (going carb.)this week because I got tired of the eec glitches. I hope the diesel tuners can get past all the eec crap and make it alot more friendly .
 
#10 ·
I'm always interested in learning as much as possible about anything I have. I'm really interested in how all the computer components work and how they control the drivetrain; and have the ability to tell the computer exactly what I want it to do. Of course I have a LOT to learn first.
 
#12 ·
Oh, and here are a few edited excerpts from an old thread (fit to publish) for some ideas:

Disclaimer: I have no dog in this hunt and I don't tune.
It's also illegal.
Modifications Copyright 2005 DP-Tuner........1. DP-TUNER hereby provides or causes to be provided to RECIPIENT the DP-T Products relative to which RECIPIENT has purchased a license, for the sole purpose of enabling RECIPIENT to use the licensed DP-T Products, including but not limited to the software included in the DP-T Products, only within the scope of the license set forth in Paragraph 2 of this Agreement. ..2. RECIPIENT acknowledges and agrees that DP-T Products embody, utilize, and/or encompass patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, and/or confidential information and other intellectual property (collectively "the DP-T Property") in which DP-TUNER has an interest, that provide competitive advantages to DP-TUNER, are central and critical to the ongoing, legitimate business of DP-TUNER, and would cause irreparable injury to DP-TUNER if exploited without permission from DP-TUNER. Therefore, RECIPIENT shall use each separate DP-T Product provided herewith and the DP-T Property included therein only during and as part of the operation of a single motor vehicle, without reproducing, distributing, publicly displaying, or publicly performing the DP-T Property, or preparing derivative works based on the DP-T Property. DP-TUNER hereby grants RECIPIENT a nonexclusive license to the provided DP-T Products and the accompanying DP-T Property only to the extent necessary to permit such limited use. RECIPIENT shall refrain from reproducing, distributing, publicly displaying, or publicly performing the DP-T Property, or preparing derivative works based on the DP-T Property and any portion thereof, from attempting to reverse engineer the DP-T Products, and from otherwise attempting to discern the content of the DP-T Products or the DP-T Property, how the DP-T Products operate, and the design and/or content of hardware and software encompassed by the DP-T Products. RECIPIENT shall not transfer DP-T Products or DP-T Property or any interest therein, including but not limited to the nonexclusive license granted above, by sale, rental, leasing, lending, or otherwise, to any third party. RECIPIENT shall inquire with DP-TUNER regarding any questions or concerns RECIPIENT has or may have about the design, construction, and operation of the DP-T Products, without attempting to resolve such questions or concerns by engaging in conduct prohibited by this Agreement.

Straight from the binary.

Don't do it.
True, true, Cody. However, if everyone played the game by the rules, we wouldn't be reading "Copyright Diesel Power" off of a number of chips that WE didn't program -- as recently as yesterday, as a matter of fact!
FWIW, does anybody ever stop to take into account for a minute that every chip programmed today also has "Copyright Ford Motor Company" embedded in the code as well? Oddly enough, everyone seems to ignore that when it's convenient for them.

Like David said, if Ford wanted to make a stink about it, they could (just ask Mike Wesley). The only reason they don't bother hassling anyone now is because those processors haven't been made in five years. Heck, Bill could line up people around the block to sue for copyright infringement, but what it really amounts to is: What would it accomplish? Rather than fight, we simply released Minotaur and let customers hack away with our blessings.

Reading the calibration section of a DP-Tuner chip, TW chip, TS chip, PHP chip, or any other chip for that matter is not illegal. If you then modify those contents, it's no different than reading the Ford factory calibration and modifying it. Those changes become YOUR changes and the copyright of the original author no longer applies. However, if anyone distributes the unmodified calibrations or market them AS THEIR OWN (not directed at you, Cody!), copyright infringement laws come into play.

Hate to use Wikipedia as a source, but I only have a limited time to edit this post. In the United States and many other countries, even if an artifact or process is protected by trade secrets, reverse-engineering the artifact or process is often lawful as long as it is obtained legitimately.
The 95-97 PCM code says, "Copyright 1988 FORD Motor Compaoz". Is there any reason for the word "compaoz"? Is it a typographical error no one cared to fix or does it have a different meaning?
I know the SD PCMs say "Copyright Ford Motor Co."

Has anyone ever google'd the names of the people listed in the OBS PCM hex? Kinda eye-opening how some of them STILL work for Ford. Others are engineering professors, etc.
**I'll play devils advocate here**
What are we doing then every time we sell a chip for profit

Did I miss the part where the guy is trying to profit from it?
I don't appreciate it when someone pulls a file of a PCM I did, but I can't really stop it either. It happens a lot more than people think. SCT had a glitch awhile back in Advantage that made this very easy. Some people saved that version before they did an Advantage update. This is a big can of worms and I'm not getting involved more than I already have. These threads should vanish IMO.
Isn't that exactly what every tuner has done to modify tunes for the stock Ford PCM?

For this reason alone I code my files with a little "tag" that lets me know where they came from (not easy to locate in a binary editor either). Not that I could really do anything about it, but it's good to know someone would like my program so much they would want to cheat off of it. Makes me feel warm inside.
The TS based chips have better copy protection on them than most. I lost some files a while back and couldn't even read my own chips to get the files back....

...
...
So, you are signing your name to the files you hacked from someone who hacked them from Ford?

Matt, it's a great idea. We put messages in our calibrations all the time, too. It makes it more amusing when the files wind up in our possession on someone ELSE's chip. We even have some out there directed at certain individuals who we KNOW are using our files and trying to pass them off as theirs. It amuses us to think what their reactions have been since they obviously can't call us on it.
I say keep doing it, Matt. Eventually people may get the message.
So, let me get this straight, Bill writes some software that hacks and modifies the original Ford code, and then you are copyrighting the IP of the Hack? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the hacking work going on that gets me more powa, but calling it theft or infringement of hack of previously hacked code is a stretch.

No, read my above post.
Did either of you start with a blank screen or did you start with a file from someone else.

Personally I would like to see more people get interested in tuning themselves.
Agree

Yeah, I've seen a pretty damn funny one in one of the files I got from Bill.....
I started tuning using the Sniper product. And I did start with their files they provided to their dealers. The funny thing is if you compared my files now to the ones I started with a few years ago they look nothing alike. Once my understanding of the underlying systems grew, I started doing things extremely different.
Let me get this straight - you bought a product (hack) that someone wrote to hack into the Ford code to modify it. Then you modify the hacked PCM code your way, and sell it for profit also. Then you are bitching that someone else is hacking your version of code. It is like a thief, stealing from a thief, who stole from a thief, who stole the original item - only difference if each thief is adding a little polish to that item and calling it his own.

You mean parts of the file are extremely different
I get your point..... we are all cheating off of what the engineers did way back when......
An entire cottage industry sprung up from hackers modifying someone else’s copyrighted code. I have powa tunes, so OK, but then the hackers criticize others for trying. :doh:

What is wrong with this whole picture.

At least most of the hackers of 80's and 90's would post up open source after their hack was on the street awhile .

Is there no honor among thieves??

Well you can also patent an improvement to a patented product can't you?
Yep, so then that gives everyone the equal right to copy and improve on your work also - right?

Not possible!
Now that's the spirit
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.


.
 
#15 ·
Open source would be great. As for all the code being based off the original pcm code from ford, sure it is.

Heres how I would look at it if I was writing tunes.

I would of course do what I could to make my tunes difficult to copy, no sense in making it easy for someone to copy what I took the time to code. But at the same time I wouldnt see there being a leg to stand on if they suceeded in it.

An open source setup of this stuff would be nice but it isnt going to make a dent in the tuners bottom line.

Out of all the people that would buy tunes I would guess 1% of them would bother fooling with making their own with the open source stuff. Remember youve still got to buy hardware from someone. Sure you can make your own programmer. Ive done it a few times on gassers but its not something the average joe will be able to do or willing to do.

So anyone that would fool with the open source stuff would be buying a tuner from someone anyways. So the tuners will still make the same money they would of made in the first place. Sure they may loose a few reburns to these people that fool with it but again I cant see that being more than 1% of the total people will to buy a tuner in the first place.

The bigest problem for a wannabe tuner is what they have to test their turnes with. The established tuners have a large customer base and some are even running shops building modified trucks, injectors, etc for people. They have more knowledge of the bigger picture thats involved in all this. So if people want to get the absolute most out of their trucks they will still end up buying tunes from the current tuners anyways.

Just my two cents on it :D
 
#17 ·
I will say that I like the idea of being able to share information on tuning in an open enviroments. At the same time I think it is only fair that is OK to share work that you want to share while not hacking in to take the work of those that do this for a living.

Tom
 
#18 ·
I think that is the only way to go...
not everyone needs to tune their own ride .
but if the big chiefs get together and have a pow-wow and come up with even better, stronger, safer,quieter, or what ever tunes .
I am all for that.

things like the new download designs are great.
no more swaping chips for reburns , no shorted out pcm's, no lost or mixed up chips ...everyone wins .

not every needs to write their own tunes but if bill, dave, jody,matt ,tony etc..etcc. all pool some knowledge it would help all of us.
(aint gonna happen but would be sweet)
 
#20 ·
You already can if you buy the software. This is about making the actual files that you modify 'open source' and possibly making the PC software 'open source' (depending on how you intrepret The Wizard's post).


I want to be able to change shift parameters. But I hate stock and don't want to drive in it for a week or two while I wait.
Maybe later I'll want to change engine parameters.

The one problem I do see is having the truck live tuned using the open source software (if a tuner would even agree to do that), then have the tune released on the 'net. Someone who really knows tuning would be able to read a lot of information from just one tune about how a certain tuner approaches problems.
 
#22 ·
The Dmax guys have been doing this for a while. They all share files on their forums. Everything is to be taken for what it is, just a free file someone else made. It might be the greatest advancement in history, or it could result in fire and destruction for the truck. I think youre right though, it would further the powerstroke performance as a whole. The professional tuners will still have their tricks and tips and what not to use that they wont openly give out, and it should be that way.

In a way, while it seems like the guys making the software will be the ones making the real bucks, i almost wouldnt mind. Its tough to tune a truck when a customer comes in and says "i want less timing and i want XXXX icp". Well what is less and xxxx numerically? the point is, will the true enthusiast that know a bit, but not as much as they think they do, ever be happy with a tune? Or will it be a losing battle? Just a few things to ponder.

I have no idea how to build templates or def files either, so as far as that goes id be all ears. I just know how to use the ones provided to me by sct, php, and sniper.
 
#86 ·
the only word that comes to mind is.......BINGO.

Like i said there are PLENTY of those that will not choose to go down this road, I have spent countless hours on my Dmax with EFI live. Most guys just want plug/play/smoke/fast.

End of Story.
 
#23 ·
I'd like to get into tuning, but I wouldn't do it until something like this came out. I'd like to be able to look at two tables side-by-side and see what changes were made and how they performed...

I think that would help those who wanted to tweak on their own tunes and make it more worthwhile...
 
#24 ·
I'd like to get into tuning, but I wouldn't do it until something like this came out. I'd like to be able to look at two tables side-by-side and see what changes were made and how they performed...

I think that would help those who wanted to tweak on their own tunes and make it more worthwhile...
Best way to learn.
about the only thing I have seen/heard that could easily cause a drastic problem is tuning with the EOT table, leave that alone and it's actually pretty easy;)


BTW either of the current software offerings will allow you to compare files.
 
#29 ·
i think it would be nice to go my own tunes that way i could change things all the time or when i want to i am not stupid by any means and am sure i could figure it out but don't know if i would be able to do the same thing that tuners that have been doing it for awhile and understand everything and know how to tweak what and where they need to and i sure wouldn't want to blow my truck up from not having it right or do something and tranny won't shift i just don't know if tom dick and harry tuning there own stuff is a good idea but your right there is only one way to learn that is to do it
 
#30 ·
David, what I meant is that the Powerstroke community as whole is nearly doomed with this kind of crap. While I missed the original thread that is being referenced in this one, I get the jest from your description and the one post with the qoutes.

For starters, everything you guys are talking about wanting to do is available through Sniper and now Power Hungry for cheap. There is nothing stopping anyone who has the Sniper software from trading their own tuning files with each other. Period. Furthermore, anyone who has bought the Sniper software can get the modified files to start with for free. So there you go, for $700 (less if you know where to look) you can tune your own truck and swap tuning files with your pals. Pay for the templates because someone spent much time creating them. These "smart" people as you call them should be paid for their work so they can be working on the next system. I have a hard time believing anyone giving it away for free actually created it from scratch themselves and doesn't need to recoop something for their time spent on the project.

EFI Live for the Duramaxes is the same deal. You need to buy the software ($500+) and off you go. Nothing is free as far as I know.

While I have spent more time that I ever expected plunking away at the computer screen trying to get vehicles to do what I wanted to with the tuning, I still don't see what anyone thinks there is to gain by it being completely free. I'm sorry, there is a lot of work involved to be a competent tuner. And in the end if you do really good, you might eek out a few more horsepower than Bill, Matt, SCT, TS, Jody, or whomever. So what? It's really not worth it in the end for the average owner. In a competition setting where you can make some changes on the fly, maybe.

For everyone else, it's like going to school to be a brain surgen and after all that education you cut hair for a profession.
 
#35 ·
Spare me the one word zen questions.

I guess what I don't understand is what is there to gain by this open source style? Seriously. It seems we have the capabilities to do everything everyone wants already.
You proved my point, people fear what they don't understand.
and the answer to my question is a pretty simple one if you truly understand what makes a good tuner.

BTW the answer is in your about us page.
I think there is some merit to open source tuning, but the reason I am looking at software is because the modifications I make are pretty damn unique to my truck. No one out there has the same combo as me and as time progresses it will become even more unique. The open source tuning would be a good base for me to see how some people get around certain problems, but it would only be for my education. The actual PW and ICP and timing and whatever would be unique for my setup.

But then again I don't fall into that 99% category.
Precisely.
 
#34 ·
I think there is some merit to open source tuning, but the reason I am looking at software is because the modifications I make are pretty damn unique to my truck. No one out there has the same combo as me and as time progresses it will become even more unique. The open source tuning would be a good base for me to see how some people get around certain problems, but it would only be for my education. The actual PW and ICP and timing and whatever would be unique for my setup.

But then again I don't fall into that 99% category.
 
#36 ·
John
Actually you need to read your entire about us page then tell me why you would criticize anyone else for wanting to do their own tuning and do it cheap.:doh:
 
#37 ·
I guess what I'm trying to ask, because perhaps I do not understand, is what would be different between the open source tuning and closed source tuning other than price??? And by price, it is not too much more expensive than buying a single commercial chip to set yourself up to tune your own vehicle. So, I'm sorry if I came across sarcastic but, what exactly is the advantage of open source tuning? I may not be grasping the idea fully.
 
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