Discuss.
It's also illegal.
Modifications Copyright 2005 DP-Tuner........1. DP-TUNER hereby provides or causes to be provided to RECIPIENT the DP-T Products relative to which RECIPIENT has purchased a license, for the sole purpose of enabling RECIPIENT to use the licensed DP-T Products, including but not limited to the software included in the DP-T Products, only within the scope of the license set forth in Paragraph 2 of this Agreement. ..2. RECIPIENT acknowledges and agrees that DP-T Products embody, utilize, and/or encompass patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, and/or confidential information and other intellectual property (collectively "the DP-T Property") in which DP-TUNER has an interest, that provide competitive advantages to DP-TUNER, are central and critical to the ongoing, legitimate business of DP-TUNER, and would cause irreparable injury to DP-TUNER if exploited without permission from DP-TUNER. Therefore, RECIPIENT shall use each separate DP-T Product provided herewith and the DP-T Property included therein only during and as part of the operation of a single motor vehicle, without reproducing, distributing, publicly displaying, or publicly performing the DP-T Property, or preparing derivative works based on the DP-T Property. DP-TUNER hereby grants RECIPIENT a nonexclusive license to the provided DP-T Products and the accompanying DP-T Property only to the extent necessary to permit such limited use. RECIPIENT shall refrain from reproducing, distributing, publicly displaying, or publicly performing the DP-T Property, or preparing derivative works based on the DP-T Property and any portion thereof, from attempting to reverse engineer the DP-T Products, and from otherwise attempting to discern the content of the DP-T Products or the DP-T Property, how the DP-T Products operate, and the design and/or content of hardware and software encompassed by the DP-T Products. RECIPIENT shall not transfer DP-T Products or DP-T Property or any interest therein, including but not limited to the nonexclusive license granted above, by sale, rental, leasing, lending, or otherwise, to any third party. RECIPIENT shall inquire with DP-TUNER regarding any questions or concerns RECIPIENT has or may have about the design, construction, and operation of the DP-T Products, without attempting to resolve such questions or concerns by engaging in conduct prohibited by this Agreement.
Straight from the binary.
Don't do it.
True, true, Cody. However, if everyone played the game by the rules, we wouldn't be reading "Copyright Diesel Power" off of a number of chips that WE didn't program -- as recently as yesterday, as a matter of fact!
FWIW, does anybody ever stop to take into account for a minute that every chip programmed today also has "Copyright Ford Motor Company" embedded in the code as well? Oddly enough, everyone seems to ignore that when it's convenient for them.
Like David said, if Ford wanted to make a stink about it, they could (just ask Mike Wesley). The only reason they don't bother hassling anyone now is because those processors haven't been made in five years. Heck, Bill could line up people around the block to sue for copyright infringement, but what it really amounts to is: What would it accomplish? Rather than fight, we simply released Minotaur and let customers hack away with our blessings.
Reading the calibration section of a DP-Tuner chip, TW chip, TS chip, PHP chip, or any other chip for that matter is not illegal. If you then modify those contents, it's no different than reading the Ford factory calibration and modifying it. Those changes become YOUR changes and the copyright of the original author no longer applies. However, if anyone distributes the unmodified calibrations or market them AS THEIR OWN (not directed at you, Cody!), copyright infringement laws come into play.
Hate to use Wikipedia as a source, but I only have a limited time to edit this post. In the United States and many other countries, even if an artifact or process is protected by trade secrets, reverse-engineering the artifact or process is often lawful as long as it is obtained legitimately.
The 95-97 PCM code says, "Copyright 1988 FORD Motor Compaoz". Is there any reason for the word "compaoz"? Is it a typographical error no one cared to fix or does it have a different meaning?
I know the SD PCMs say "Copyright Ford Motor Co."
Has anyone ever google'd the names of the people listed in the OBS PCM hex? Kinda eye-opening how some of them STILL work for Ford. Others are engineering professors, etc.
**I'll play devils advocate here**
What are we doing then every time we sell a chip for profit
Did I miss the part where the guy is trying to profit from it?
Isn't that exactly what every tuner has done to modify tunes for the stock Ford PCM?I don't appreciate it when someone pulls a file of a PCM I did, but I can't really stop it either. It happens a lot more than people think. SCT had a glitch awhile back in Advantage that made this very easy. Some people saved that version before they did an Advantage update. This is a big can of worms and I'm not getting involved more than I already have. These threads should vanish IMO.
For this reason alone I code my files with a little "tag" that lets me know where they came from (not easy to locate in a binary editor either). Not that I could really do anything about it, but it's good to know someone would like my program so much they would want to cheat off of it. Makes me feel warm inside.
...The TS based chips have better copy protection on them than most. I lost some files a while back and couldn't even read my own chips to get the files back....
...
Matt, it's a great idea. We put messages in our calibrations all the time, too. It makes it more amusing when the files wind up in our possession on someone ELSE's chip. We even have some out there directed at certain individuals who we KNOW are using our files and trying to pass them off as theirs. It amuses us to think what their reactions have been since they obviously can't call us on it.
So, let me get this straight, Bill writes some software that hacks and modifies the original Ford code, and then you are copyrighting the IP of the Hack? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the hacking work going on that gets me more powa, but calling it theft or infringement of hack of previously hacked code is a stretch.I say keep doing it, Matt. Eventually people may get the message.
No, read my above post.
AgreeDid either of you start with a blank screen or did you start with a file from someone else.
Personally I would like to see more people get interested in tuning themselves.
Yeah, I've seen a pretty damn funny one in one of the files I got from Bill.....
Let me get this straight - you bought a product (hack) that someone wrote to hack into the Ford code to modify it. Then you modify the hacked PCM code your way, and sell it for profit also. Then you are bitching that someone else is hacking your version of code. It is like a thief, stealing from a thief, who stole from a thief, who stole the original item - only difference if each thief is adding a little polish to that item and calling it his own.I started tuning using the Sniper product. And I did start with their files they provided to their dealers. The funny thing is if you compared my files now to the ones I started with a few years ago they look nothing alike. Once my understanding of the underlying systems grew, I started doing things extremely different.
You mean parts of the file are extremely different
An entire cottage industry sprung up from hackers modifying someone else’s copyrighted code. I have powa tunes, so OK, but then the hackers criticize others for trying. :doh:I get your point..... we are all cheating off of what the engineers did way back when......
Yep, so then that gives everyone the equal right to copy and improve on your work also - right?Well you can also patent an improvement to a patented product can't you?
Not possible!
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.Now that's the spirit
Best way to learn.I'd like to get into tuning, but I wouldn't do it until something like this came out. I'd like to be able to look at two tables side-by-side and see what changes were made and how they performed...
I think that would help those who wanted to tweak on their own tunes and make it more worthwhile...
Spare me the one word zen questions.Johnboy
While I see where you are coming from I don't agree, can you tell me with one word what makes a good tuner?
You proved my point, people fear what they don't understand.Spare me the one word zen questions.
I guess what I don't understand is what is there to gain by this open source style? Seriously. It seems we have the capabilities to do everything everyone wants already.
Precisely.I think there is some merit to open source tuning, but the reason I am looking at software is because the modifications I make are pretty damn unique to my truck. No one out there has the same combo as me and as time progresses it will become even more unique. The open source tuning would be a good base for me to see how some people get around certain problems, but it would only be for my education. The actual PW and ICP and timing and whatever would be unique for my setup.
But then again I don't fall into that 99% category.